Cigar, Magic, and a Oaxacan Jesuit: An Interview with Dr. Austin Johnson of Executive Counseling

This week, I had the opportunity to sit down with Dr.

Austin Johnson

, psychologist and author of

Executive Counseling

right here on Substack. If you aren’t subscribed to his newsletter yet, you truly are missing out. His insights into the psychology of professional life are poignant, accessible, and practical.

It was a privilege to chat with Dr. Johnson - or simply “Austin” as he’d probably prefer to be referenced, given that’s how he signs off in each of his newsletter articles. After reading this interview, I encourage you to check out the Executive Counseling publication, as well as his website and his Instagram. Austin and I are happy to continue this conversation in the comments. Post whatever questions or thoughts come to mind.

With that said, let’s jump right into the interview.

Photo of Dr. Austin Johnson by Derek Harrell Photo

THE WALKIST: From a city planning perspective, most well-executed developments embrace a multidisciplinary approach. You’re a doctor of psychology, but you also have degrees in history, anthropology, and theology. Can you share your thoughts on the importance or maybe the advantage of a multidisciplinary approach (or at least a multidisciplinary background) in therapy?

EXECUTIVE COUNSELING: I love that question. Holism is a big deal. Nobody wants to be treated or talked to like they are just a collection of statistical data points. Human beings are complex and interconnected with each other and their environment. But our attention span, field of vision, and resources are limited. Individual academic disciplines are limited by definition and by necessity. So we have to be judicious about where to focus ourselves.

I think the way a person views academic disciplines says a lot about how they view human beings. If you tend to think one academic discipline is privileged above all others, you may be likely to view human beings as entirely explained by whatever that discipline is. If you view disciplines as limited and interdependent, you may be more likely to view human beings with a bit more of a sense of mystery. And I think mystery is a good thing. It’s dangerous to assume you have all the answers.       

I chose my own academic path based on my love of history, a sense of mystery, belief in a connection to something bigger than myself, and a deep reverence for human suffering. I think those things make a pretty good recipe for a therapeutic experience.  

TW: Much of your practice focuses on the intersection of mental health and professional life. What is it about that overlap that interests you?

EC: We spend so much of our lives either working or preparing for work. So much of the stress we carry around with us comes from work, finances, or the economy. Psychology and the topic of a person’s profession create such an exciting synergy. I think it points back to the power of interdisciplinary approaches.

When I was working on my dissertation I conducted research with people living and working in Oaxaca, Mexico. One of the people I talked to was a Jesuit priest. Jesuits are fascinating to me. Traditionally speaking they have a close intellectual connection to Karl Marx, but not necessarily in a political sense. To paraphrase one Jesuit scholar, they use Marx to help them better understand the poor, but they feel no need to answer to Marx or maintain any ideological purity. I love that idea. Use whatever you need to help you better understand the people around you. Personally I think those Jesuits are on to something. It’s impossible to really understand somebody without understanding how they earn their living. And if all you know about somebody is what all is involved in their work, then you know a great deal. Not everything, but a lot.

I guess you could say my focus on professional life came about pragmatically. It’s impossible to avoid, so might as well jump in and face it head on.

Photo by Timothy Dachraoui on Unsplash

TW: “Jump in and face it head on.” One thing I’ve taken away from your writing is a constant call to action. While you do spend time naming or describing syndromes or situations (my apologies if I am butchering the jargon), you tend to use it more as a framing device or an entry point to get down to the business of improvement. Would you say “Jump in and face it head on” is a fair description of your therapeutic approach?

EC: Absolutely. I think that every different theoretical approach to therapy has something useful to contribute, and the theoretical interests of a therapist should always play second fiddle to the unique needs of the client. That being said, my outlook and the way I practice has been shaped a lot by solution-focused methods. This tends to fit well with the needs of busy professionals who are eager to get to work once they have a clear sense of the problem and the general direction of where they feel they need to go. It’s also worth noting that a lot of therapy is trial and error. Try things out and make note of what works and what doesn’t. Depression and anxiety, in many instances, is a matter of feeling stuck, and the thing to do when you’re stuck is to try something…anything… different. Even if you don’t get the result that you want, you still get good information that can inform future actions. So, yes, the courage to take action is something I work hard to keep in focus. That is a core component of existential philosophy as well.

TW: I write about the experience of walking, specifically, walking in well-designed places. Anecdotally, I know that walking makes people, including myself, feel good. Can you talk about what walking does for mental health from a more scientific perspective?

EC: Instead of boring your readers with statistical studies, I’ll reference some broad principles. One of the cornerstone concepts of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is the interconnection between thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. Change one of those things and the rest will change too. For most people, changing behaviors is the easiest place to start. The idea, then, is if you are feeling depressed, do the opposite of what you feel like doing. If you don’t want to get out of bed, go for a walk. It takes discipline, but the results are undeniable. If you’re feeling stressed, like things are moving too fast and you can’t catch your breath, do something intentionally slow. It’s almost like walking is a magic cure-all.

Photo by Joshua J. Cotten on Unsplash

TW: That’s fascinating. I’m hearing “change” as a key term here. It brings to mind something that you’ve written about before called the gateway effect or the doorway effect. Could you take a moment to describe that concept and how it can tie in with walking?

EC: Great insight! (If I was Freud, it would be at this point that I would offer you a congratulatory cigar.) The doorway effect describes the psychological and physiological changes that can happen as a result of crossing a physical or geographical boundary. My favorite way to explain it is this: You’re sitting in your living room and realize you’re thirsty. You go to the kitchen but when you get there you forget why you went in there. You noodle around and eventually go back to the living room. As soon as you sit down you remember that you’re thirsty and wonder why you didn’t get a drink when you were just in the kitchen. It’s a powerful effect. It points to how dramatically interconnected we are with our environment. You got up and changed your environment by just one single room, and your mind and body underwent such a drastic upheaval that you momentarily forgot you were thirsty. While that is an annoying example (that we can all relate to), we can harness that same effect to our benefit. And when you apply it to the act of walking the implications are immense. I personally think it is wise to have around 3 to 5 favorite walks that you can enjoy on a regular basis. You may be feeling bored, so a walk downtown might help liven things up. You may be feeling like everything is moving too fast, so a walk through an arboretum or by a body of water might help slow things down. Each walk has something unique to offer that you might need to tap into depending on what you are facing that day. The act of walking in and of itself can become almost a spiritual place that you can enter regardless of the physical location. Walking… anywhere... can help you access the feelings of calm or stimulation or whatever else you may need. I use the metaphor a lot, but it’s like cooking with cast iron. The more you do it, the more rich and flavorful the experience becomes.

TW: Do you include walking in your own mental health routine? Do you use walking as a recommended tool with your patients?

EC: Yes. One of my favorite exercises to do personally and to use as a homework assignment in therapy is to take a walk and do a simple mindfulness exercise I call “The Five Senses.” Just make note of one piece of sensory information you can from each of the five senses while out on your walk. Some senses may not make it into the picture; you may not taste much on your walk. But do what you can. It’s a simple way to ground yourself to your surroundings and help yourself be more present. When I do this, I can feel an immediate change in my posture, muscle tension, and breath rate.

TW: What a beautiful description. I actually find myself doing that at times for the pure enjoyment of the sensations. I’ll have to remember to check in with my muscles and breathing next time to see how it affects me physiologically. That’s also a perfect lead-in to the next thing I wanted to ask you which is - Will you describe an enjoyable walk you’ve taken recently?

EC: Me and my wife took our kids to the gulf coast recently. We were staying with family in a house a couple blocks from the beach. At one point I put my two-year old son up on my shoulders, and we walked down to the beach. It was very hot and very humid, but when we passed the last sand dune on our way to the beach it felt like the air temperature dropped about ten degrees. It was amazing. I loved getting to share this with my son.

TW: If you could take a walk anywhere right now, where would it be and why?

EC: When we were in grad school in Pasadena, CA, my wife and I spent countless evenings walking the famous three-mile loop around the Rose Bowl. It’s right at the foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains. When the sun is at golden hour the mountains burst into a glowing warm color. And Pasadena being the “city of roses” there is some new flora blooming every few weeks or so and you can smell the scents all across the city. It was the calm we needed to get us through the chaos of grad school. We miss that walk so much and talk about it on an almost weekly basis. 

TW: Thank you so much for sitting down with me. To close things out, are there any books you would recommend on any of the topics we’ve discussed?

EC: The writings of Thich Nhat Hahn are remarkable. His book “Peace Is Every Step” is great for addressing the intersection of walking and mental health. Thich Nhat Hanh is a Vietnamese Buddhist monk who makes the topic of mindfulness accessible and practical. He was close friends with Martin Luther King, Jr. and a huge advocate for human rights. Combine that with the role of walking in Martin Luther King, Jr.’s legacy, and these two figures are giants looming in the background of this conversation. The more I learn about Thich Nhat Hanh’s life, the more I recommend “Peace Is Every Step.”